Tuesday, July 11, 2006

Well, someone has to do it.

I guess it might as well be me.
Tara points to this list comparing scientists to religion. Cute but nonsense.

On the other hand, as I read more and more evolution denial and HIV/AIDS denial threads I have greater and greater difficulty telling the two apart. Here’s a partial list of equivalancies I’ve noticed:

HIV/AIDS- Evolution
Denial - Denial
Internet - Church
Padian Study – Cambrian Explosion
Peter Duesberg – Johnathan Wells
Harvey Bialy - William Dembski
Dean Esmay – Dave Scott
Celia Farber – Michael Behe
Hank Barnes – Salvador Cordova
Robert Gallo – Earnst Haeckel
Complete disregard for Molecular evidence –Complete disregard for Molecular evidence
AIDS diagnosis includes HIV infection – “Survival of the fittest” is a tautology
Poppers/recreational drugs – Intelligent Designer
Africa – High Schools
Patients – Penitents
HIV tests innaccurate - There's no such thing as a beneficial mutation
Show me the HIV/AIDS vaccine - Show me a cat turning into dog in the lab
"Absolutely NO evidence HIV causes AIDS!"- "Absolutely NO evidence of macroevolution!"
Can anyone point out some criterion to distinguish one type of denialist from the other?

ps: If you can think of any other similarities feel free to add them in comments!

Dean Esmay provides two suggestions for the list.

Nobel Laureate Kary Mullis should pair nicely with Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley
Walter Gilbert (co-inventor of the DNA sequencing reaction. “father of molecular biology” according to Dean) should pair nicely with John Sanford (father of modern plant biotechnology)
***Walter Gilbert has accepted the evidence, provided by anti-retrovirals controlling AIDS symptoms, that HIV is indeed the cause of AIDS. See comments below.***
These are welcome additions to the list.

Thanks, Dean!

Anyone coming over from Deansworld be sure to check out these answers to the six questions Bialy posted there some time ago.

I don't want you going away thinking we haven't noticed the most glaring similarity between HIV "skeptics" and evolution deniers, that they're both wrong.

The only blog inspired by a Bumper Sticker.

Comments on "Well, someone has to do it."


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/12/2006 11:01 AM) : 

My apologies to Salvador Cordova.

While equally as wrong about matters scientific, Sal is nothing like the relentless internet troll that Hank Barnes is.

In addition to being a one trick pony Hank is just [incapable of grasping the point of any written communication. http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2006/07/against_gates_adn_buffet.php#commentsArea]


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/20/2006 12:24 AM) : 

As I've said numerous times, the proper analogy is actually between the IDers and the HIVers. Each group uses the same tactics (distraction, obfuscation, rhetoric, lying). It's fooled most real scientists who are too lazy to take a few trips to the stacks for themselves.

"HIV tests innaccurate"

This is a fact. You should get out sometime, and maybe step into a real library...if you can be bothered. Here are some quotes, all from the orthodox literature.

"In half of the cases in which a subject had a positive p24 test, the subject later had a negative test without taking any medications that would be expected to affect p24 antigen levels...the test is clinically erratic and should be interpreted very cautiously.", Todak, G., Klein, E., Lange, M. et al. 1991. A clinical appraisal of the p24 Antigen test, p326. In: Vol. I, Abstracts VII International Conference on AIDS, Florence.

"On the basis of our positive Western Blot data, it appears that parenteral drug users may have been exposed to HTLV-III or a related virus as early as 1971. An alternative but equally viable explanation is that the HTLV-III seropositivity detected in these specimens represents false positive or non-specific reactions.", Jaffe, J.H., Moore, J.D., Cone, E.J. et al. 1986. HTLV-III Seropositivity in 1971-1972 Parenteral Drug Abusers-A case of false Positives or Evidence of Viral Exposure? NEJM 314:1387-1388.

"To culture is to disturb.", Meyerhans, A., Cheynier, R., Albert, J. et al. 1989. Temporal Fluctuations in HIV quasispecies in vivo are not reflected by sequential HIV isolations. Cell 58:901-910.

"Problems may be encountered when an HIV Western Blot is done on someone at no identifiable risk of infection. For example, recent studies of blood donors in whom no risk of HIV infection could be ascertained, who were nonreactive on the ELISA, and for whom all other tests for HIV were negative, revealed that 20% to 40% might have an indeterminate Western Blot...", and ""Notable causes of false positive reactions have been antibodies that sometimes occur in multiparous women and in multiply transfused patients. Likewise, antibodies to proteins of other viruses have been reported to cross react with HIV determinants. False positive HIV ELISA's also have been observed recently in persons who received vaccines for influenza and hepatitis B virus.", Proffitt MR & Yen Lieberman B (1993, June). Laboratory diagnosis of HIV infection. Infectious Disease Clinics of North America 7(2).; 203-215.

"Our results document a fourth source of false positive HIV-1 Western Blot results, which is the reproducible but nonspecific reactivity to (proteins from HIV)... Preliminary studies suggest that the basis for this cross reactivity with HIV-1 gp 41 proteins may be infection by paramyxoviruses, carbohydrate antibodies, or autoantibodies against cellular proteins.", Sayre KR, Dodd RY, Tegtemeier G et al. (1996). False positive HIV-1 Western Bloy tests in noninfected blood donors. Transfusion 36; 45-52.

Montagnier's group concluded that gp 41 "may be due to contamination of the virus by cellular actin which was present...in all the cell extracts", Barre-Sinoussi F, Chermann JC, Rey F, Montagnier L, et al. (1983). Isolation of a T-lymphotrtophic retrovirus from a patient at risk for AIDS. Science 220: 868-871.

"Circulating levels of plasma virus determined by (quantitative) PCR correlated with, but exceeded by an average of 60,000-fold, numbers of infectious HIV-1 that were determined by quantitative culture of identical portions of plasma... Total virions have been reported (in other studies) to exceed culturable infectious units by factors of 1000 to 10,000,000, ratios similar to those we observed in plasma.", Piatak M, Saag MS, Yang LC, et al. (1993). High levels of HIV-1 in plasma during all stages of infection determined by quantitative competitive PCR. Science 259; 1749-1754.

Darin Brown


Blogger Dean Esmay said ... (7/20/2006 1:06 AM) : 

Generally speaking, someone is a "troll" when they intentionally say obnoxious things or call people names just to get attention.

Furthermore, comparing someone to creationists or ID'ers is usually just a cheap shot way of changing the argument. Moreover, my own experience is quite the opposite: it is those who defend the church of HIV who generally behave exactly like the Creationists--it's all about faith, and about nasty assertions at people's character. When you ask them the really difficult questions they shy and dance away, just like the ID'ers and especially the Creationists. (And no, I'm not an ID'er, although some have tried to pigeonhole me that way).

Honestly: we're talking now about multiple people with Nobel laureates, including the father of molecular biology himself, Walter Gilbert. And you're going to compare him to a semi-interesting math/physics geek like Dembske?

You might also note that the ID'ers are quite well funded. Those who are skeptical that we have the complete story on HIV, that we really understand this disease like we should? Really no money at all to speak of, and little or nothing to sell. Certainly no government grants, or private grants.

So really, who's acting more like the name-calling twits and the defenders of a faith here?

Ah but do go on. We're all alike, we are. Compare us to the UFO cultists too why don't you? Might as well.


Blogger Dean Esmay said ... (7/20/2006 1:32 AM) : 

Still I can't help but ask:

Walter Gilbert, father of Molecular Biolgy, Nobel Laureate. Where is he in your constellation of well-funded, ideological religious fanatics like the ID'ers?

Kary Mullis, Biochemist, creator of PCR who thinks the "viral load" indicators are a crock: where is he on your list of well-paid, ideological, religious fanatic nutjobs?

Lynn Margulis, a National Academy of Sciences member, one of the first to seriously challenge Dawkins and others on certain core issues of evolutionary biology (now universally accepted but once rejected), Carl Sagan's widow: where's she on your list of well-paid, well-funded ideologues like the ID'ers?

Serge Lang, Yale mathematicians, one of the most influential in the world until his recent death, another National Academy of Sciences member: where's he on your constellation?

Gerald Pollack, professor of bioengineering at university of Washington, a CV a mile long, a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, a member of the National Science's Board's Committee on Transformative Science: religious nut? Internet troll?

I mean, I can go on like this. They aren't the only ones like this. These aren't obscure nobodies who stepped out of a PhD mill and then found some well-funded conservative Christians to hand them money. Why must they be subjected to this kind of abuse from folks like you? I mean, really?


Blogger Dean Esmay said ... (7/20/2006 1:34 AM) : 

(Now I'll just wait for the answer: "Oh look, Esmay's waving credentials around!" No, I'm not. I'm asking you how you can justify simply abusing people of this calibre. Can they not be simply wrong in your eyes? Do they have to be spit on, treated like drooling morons and people with a hidden agenda? Yeesh.)

(Sorry, I'll stop now. Feel free to carry on with the abuse.)


Blogger Scott Kirwin said ... (7/20/2006 6:58 AM) : 

Ad hominem attacks and specious comparisons are the weakest arguments one can use in a debate. As a someone who has studied wild chimpanzees firsthand and view Darwin as the greatest scientist in History - I find your abuse of Evolution through its comparison to HIV->AIDS insulting.

The HIV-AIDS hypothesis has been around for just over 20 years and stood few challenges. Evolution has been around in its current form for almost 150, and has withstood countless attempts to disprove it. You are trying to use it to bolster the HIV->AIDS hypothesis, and don't even realize that by doing so you end up weakening it.

If you wish to attack those who question HIV, then confront them with the evidence. Don't be lazy and run to Evolution for support.


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/20/2006 8:58 AM) : 

Hi Pharma Bawd,

Here's a 3-trick pony!

1. Cite me the peer-reviewed paper first demonstrated that HIV caused AIDS?

2. Cite me the peer-reviewed paper tested the competing hypotheses that: HIV is a pathogenic virus as opposed to a passenger virus?

3. What evidence would falsify the claim that HIV causes AIDS?

BTW, How's the Pharma rep job? I thought that was mostly for sorority girls outta college:)

Fondly, Hank


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 9:33 AM) : 

Hi Dean,

So we agree? Hank’s a troll at Tara’s blog?

Regarding the list, perhaps you should look where this started. http://www.newaidsreview.org/posts/1148877443.shtml
So if it’s a “cheap shot” it’s just responding in kind. (And please note Darin Brown’s contribution here:

“As I've said numerous times, the proper analogy is actually between the IDers and the HIVers.”)

Still though, wouldn’t you agree that there is more of a direct equivalence in my list, than theirs? I mean the Pope, the Devil, Holy Water? Come on.

Setting aside whether the “skeptics” are correct or not, my list comparing HIV “skepticism” to intelligent design creationism is more directly equivalent right?

And yet, even as you criticize me for making such a list, you say “church of HIV”, “all about faith”, “like the ID’ers”. Don’t pretend it’s the first time either.

“Honestly: we're talking now about multiple people with Nobel laureates, including the father of molecular biology himself, Walter Gilbert.”

As you note later, this is argument from authority and yes it is another similarity between HIV “skeptics” to Intelligent Design Creationists.

“And you're going to compare him (Walter Gilbert –ed.) to a semi-interesting math/physics geek like Dembske?”

Heck no! Besides the fact that I don’t find Dembske(sic) even semi-interesting, he doesn’t deserve anything like a comparison to Walter Gilbert. Walter Gilbert is more like John Sanford “father of plant biotechnology” (he invented the “gene gun”). See how nicely they pair? Inventors of really novel technologies that changed our world and made them very rich. One denies evolution, one denies that HIV causes AIDS. And really, is Gilbert actively in the “skeptic” camp at this point? A brief search found quotes from the late 80’s early 90’s but nothing more recent. If he is an HIV “skeptic”, as founder of Biogen, one of the largest biotech companies in the world, and thus a man of considerable wealth and tremendous resources, surely he could perform the experiments at Biogen, or through his capacities as a professor at Harvard, or provide Duesberg with funds to produce some evidence for the HIV does not cause AIDS hypothesis. Right? I mean if Biogen can show that HIV does not cause AIDS, there’s got to be a way to make money there right? Something’s making these people sick.

“So really, who's acting more like the name-calling twits and the defenders of a faith here?”

You guys. http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1149935394.shtml
And to an extent me personally, not the vast majority of scientists who actually study HIV/AIDS and simply ignore you guys. And don’t you see that an ID’er will say exactly the same thing about scientists who get frustrated and respond to insults with insults?

Still I can't help but ask:

Walter Gilbert, … Kary Mullis, … Lynn Margulis,… Gerald Pollack,…?”

Like I said, Gilbert = Sanford, Mullis is more like someone like Richard Smalley. Lynn Margulis is more difficult. Let me think about that. Can you give me a link that describes precisely what Dr. Margulis’ version of HIV “skepticism” is? That might help. I’d hate to mischaracterize her. My impression to date is that she is just standing up for Duesberg’s right to state and research his hypothesis. Is there more to it than that? (I read her review of Bialy’s book.) Same for Pollack, he seems to have accepted some of the arguments from Bialy’s book that I don’t accept but I haven’t read the book so I can’t find him an exact counterpart. But for now, how about Henry Schaefer? (Not really fair to Pollack, I know.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_F._Schaefer,_III

“Why must they be subjected to this kind of abuse from folks like you? I mean, really?”

Because, and this is something that you genuinely do not seem to get Dean, you and they are effectively calling thousands of scientists who accept the conventional view stupid, dishonest, or fools all the time. People like Hank and Celia and you certainly deserve this ridicule for your outspoken criticism of a huge number of qualified professionals while all of you lack any professional standing or even training in evaluating the science. Indeed, I slight Behe by comparing him to Celia Farber. She is more akin to Ann Coulter, but clearly this is too harsh a comparison to Celia. She is obviously not a bitch like Coulter, but she is equally unqualified to spew misinformation about science as Coulter is and in doing so she does a public disservice as egregious in kind, if not magnitude, to Coulter’s.

As to the people with some qualifications, I ridicule them to the same extent I ridicule the ID’ers who have qualifications suggesting they should know better.

“I'm asking you how you can justify simply abusing people of this calibre. Can they not be simply wrong in your eyes? Do they have to be spit on, treated like drooling morons and people with a hidden agenda? Yeesh.”

Abusing? Again, I’m emulating another list here. And you do recognize that there are far more people of equivalent caliber on the established science side of HIV/AIDS causation? Don’t you? How can you justify the things you say about the “HIV/AIDS paradigm”, “church of HIV”, etc. You think you’re not abusive to them? If not you, then Hank? Bialy? Liam Scheff for Christ’s sake?

Sheesh is right.

Regarding the actual treatment of their arguments, here’s a start http://momentofscience.blogspot.com/2006/07/conversation-with-virologist.html#links
The work is not mine, but I agree with it.

Thanks for stopping by Dean.


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 9:59 AM) : 

Hi Scott,

I see you also subscribe to the Dean Esmay definition of "ad hominem". If not, please show me one that I've made in this post.

Hank has helpfully provided you with an example:

Implying that my statements may be disregarded because I work in the pharmaceutical/biotechnology industry, and because I was a cheerleader and president of my sorority in college.


No, that's not really me.


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 10:02 AM) : 

And to anyone coming over from DeansWorld. I never said Dean sucked.

I compared him to Dave Scot as as a roughly equivalent purveyor of misinformation on the internet. With regards to some of Dave Scot's more loathsome tendencies: deleting comments, banning people for simple disagreement, changing the record,.... Dean is nothing like Dave Scot.


Blogger Scott Kirwin said ... (7/20/2006 10:19 AM) : 

Pharma bawd
You're the second smart person I've had to correct today with a definition (the other was one who thought Ebay wasn't a monopoly... but I digress).

Reaching over to wikipedia... "Ad hominem tu quoque: This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy.

(ad hominem) I hadn't realized you were one of the genetically engineered pharmreps. I have yet to meet an ugly one (I suppose they are all left at the edge of the village at birth).(/ad hominem)

I could also make another by stating that you personally benefit from pushing anti-HIV drugs - or yet another that states that unlike Dean, Hank or myself you write under a pseudonym and are therefore afraid to put your butt on the line for your beliefs.

However I get bored with snarky attacks and prefer sound, solid arguments.

You can criticize Dean all you want - just be sure to spell his name correctly when you do. I personally, as a strong advocate of the sciences, prefer that you stop abusing Evolution in order to support much weaker hypothesis and ideas.


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 10:53 AM) : 

Sure Scott, like Dean you can cut and paste the definition, but do you understand what it means? and can you recognize it when written?

I asked you to show me where I had engaged in an ad hominem fallacy, where is it please?

Don't spend too much time on it, there isn't one. and your example here:

"I could also make another by stating that you personally benefit from pushing anti-HIV drugs...."

isn't one either. That would be a legitimate argument against my credibility if it were true. It is not an ad hominem, nor is it true. I personally benefit in no way from any drug, any person, takes for HIV/AIDS. (No, not even stock options, mutual funds, nor anything besides general societal benefit.)

"or yet another that states that unlike Dean, Hank or myself you write under a pseudonym and are therefore afraid to put your butt on the line for your beliefs."

This is closer, but again it may be a legitimate argument like if we both whip out dicks our (metaphorically speaking of course) and compare our credentials to discuss evolution and I assert mine anonymously while you show us your CV.

Oh, and I'll happily put my butt on any line for my understanding of HIV/AIDS causation in real life. I would say the exact same thing about HIV/AIDS "skeptics" in real life. I just don't want to put it, or my family's, on the line for blogging. Nothing to do with HIV/AIDS, necessarily, did you see the Elizabeth Dole post?

But you're right about one thing. This is boring.


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/20/2006 11:41 AM) : 

Instead of yapping about HIV skeptics, why not simply demonstrate that you KNOW something about HIV by answering 3 simple questions:

1. Cite me the peer-reviewed paper first demonstrated that HIV caused AIDS?

2. Cite me the peer-reviewed paper tested the competing hypotheses that: HIV is a pathogenic virus as opposed to a passenger virus?

3. What evidence would falsify the claim that HIV causes AIDS?

You talk a lot, but you produce little.


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 12:09 PM) : 

Hi Hank,

Why don't you read this?

And if you or Dean would be so kind as to post that link on Dean's World it would be greatly appreciated. Since I'm not able to comment there.

It would be nice to note that the sum total of our criticism of HIV/AIDS "skeptics" is not limited to their obvious similarities to IDC-ers.

That's a practicing scientist with very laudable credentials answering Bialy's questions. I know you guys will take exception to things like viral load measurements, but setting that aside, please note how he has fairly shredded anything like a point Bialy had to make in asking those questions.


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/20/2006 1:02 PM) : 

I asked YOU the questions, Ditz, not some anonymous, Dilbert, bean-counting loser in some lab making $28,000 year, at best.

Do you have the 3 answers or not?



Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 1:25 PM) : 

I gotta hand it to Dean Esmay, he does know what a troll is.

"Generally speaking, someone is a "troll" when they intentionally say obnoxious things or call people names just to get attention."

Thanks Hank.

When you've completed those remedial learning exercises I assigned you at Aetiology
come on back, and I'll be happy to discuss HIV with you Hank.


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/20/2006 1:33 PM) : 

Oh! and Hank,

You can forget about the graduate level course in virology. If you think that rebuttal looks like the contribution of a lab tech, you're gonna be lucky to make it through introductory genetics.

Good luck!


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/26/2006 6:06 AM) : 

Here is an email exchange I had with Walter Gilbert back in April that may be some help to this thread (for the record, I'm not a doctor nor did I assert or infer that I was):

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Gilbert [mailto:wgilbert@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:27 PM
To: richard.jefferys@verizon.net
Subject: Re: question

Dear Dr. Jeffreys---I am afraid that those comments go back to the late
80's. At that time I was a skeptic--the argument based on Koch's
postulates to try to distinguish between cause and association.
However, even during that time we had several AIDS projects going within
Biogen--one to try to stimulate T-independent B-cell activation (a pet
approach of mine), another to develop soluble CD4--to use as an
antiviral agent. That second project got to clinical trials (and failed
because the virus in patients didn't have the high affinity for CD4 that
the lab-grown virus had.)
Today I would regard the success of the many antiviral agents which
lower the virus titers (to be expected) and also resolve the failure
of the immune system (only expected if the virus is the cause of the
failure) as a reasonable proof of the causation argument.

yours truly

Walter Gilbert

Richard Jefferys wrote:
> Dear Dr. Gilbert:
> I am exceedingly sorry to trouble you with a possibly trivial and
> tiresome question, but it has come to my attention that advocates of the
> idea that HIV does not cause AIDS are continuing to use quotes from you
> in support of their position. Obviously the high regard in which you are
> held by the scientific community is something they hope will support
> their cause. I would not in any way argue with your right to hold
> whatever beliefs you have, but I thought it would be prudent to try and
> check if you’re still of the mind that HIV plays no causative role in
> the development of AIDS.
> Again, I would much prefer to be asking a question about your scientific
> work and apologize for troubling you with this.
> Thanks and best wishes,
> Richard Jefferys


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/26/2006 6:11 AM) : 

It may also be useful to note that Lynn Margulis obtained her PhD from UC Berkeley in 1963, which suggests that she may have a longstanding connection to Duesberg (perhaps someone will provide evidence to the contrary). It is also unclear to me whether Margulis realizes that, on the strength of an Amazon book review, she has now been added to the list of AIDS "rethinkers" and is therefore now in the illustrious company of quacks like Hulda Clark and creationists like Philip Johnson. Perhaps someone should let her know...


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/26/2006 7:46 AM) : 


Thanks for the comments! Especially the email conversation with Dr. Gilbert. I suspected as much, and am inclined to agree with you that Margulis is probably not as avid a "skeptic" as she is portrayed.

Unfortunately, I had to delete your last comment.

If Hank Barnes is a pseudonym that's his business as far as I'm concerned. Though if he is who you suggest, his "skepticism" is more dishonest than even I imagined.

I'll look the comment over and see if I can, in good conscience, post portions of it.

I feel it would be hypocritical of me to post a pseudonymous blogger's true identity here while "hiding" behind my own anonymity.

I hope you understand, and if you object to my dissecting your comment please let me know and I will refrain from altering it.

Thanks again for the excellent comments though.


Anonymous Anonymous said ... (7/26/2006 7:51 AM) : 

Sure, no problem, totally your call. "Hank"'s acknowledgment of his real identity is on his own blog here:


"Oh, yeah, for some of those in the dark (like McKiernan), who, strangely, give a rat's ass (like McKiernan) Barnes is a nom de plume.

My family, friends and kids call me D. David Steele.

Here, however, y'all can call me Hank!


Posted by: Hank | June 22, 2006 at 10:22 AM"


Blogger Pharma Bawd said ... (7/26/2006 8:58 AM) : 

Well, I suppose there's no point in me protecting his anonymity if he's not going to.

Anyway, here is Richard's comment with my redactions:

Richard Jefferys said...
Having just skimmed through this thread again, there appears to be an assertion that Hank Barnes is a real person. This is not the case. As he himself admits on his blog, Hank Barnes is a pseudonym, he is apparently a personal injury lawyer and

Perhaps he can correct me if I'm wrong. ****REDACTED**** represented a client in an attempt to sue several medical providers and GSK over the prescription of antiretrovirals as post-exposure prophylaxis (on the basis of denialist arguments), the court papers can be found online here:


The case was deemed without merit, if I understand the legalese correctly.

It is also quite funny to see Dean Esmay argue that someone who seriously believes he has had conversations with glowing racoons (Kary Mullis) is not a "nutjob." I think that may be a matter for debate...


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